Connections with Nature

Holly Giacomodonato  0:05  

Thank you for joining us for the second episode of Establish the podcast, where we talk about climate associated risks and potential solutions with youth, climate experts, organizers and traditional knowledge keepers. This episode is focusing on conservation and biodiversity. Established is a podcast created by Shake Up the Establishment. 

 

I’d like to take a moment to acknowledge that Shake Up the Establishment is a youth led registered national non-partisan non-profit organization that operates within the geographical confines of what is currently known as Canada, but what is referred to by its first peoples as Turtle Island. Indigenous peoples have inhabited Turtle Island for over 10,000 years and were the sole inhabitants less than 500 years ago. We acknowledge that our address resides on Treaty 3 land and is the traditional territory of the Eerie, Neutral, Huron-Wendat, Haudenosaunee, and Mississaugas peoples. Turtle Island is still home to many Indigenous peoples and we at SUTE are thankful to be able to live, learn, and work on this territory whilst continuing to create meaningful change for the climate justice movement. 

 

My name is Holly and my pronouns are she/her. I’m a science researcher at Shake Up the Establishment and I’ve been able to write about mountain pine beetle and invasive green crap and their impacts on the environment, biomass energy in Scotia and Canada’s marine protected areas, among others.

 

Anna Huschka  1:30  

My name is Anna, my pronouns are she and her and I’m a political content researcher and writer with Shake Up the Establishment. So I work on researching and creating resources like blog posts, informative social media posts, and primers, on topics all across social justice and climate justice, and climate change topics. So I’ve worked on topics like environmental racism, the environmental racism, Bill C 230, and Canada’s efforts to protect the Right Whale.

 

Holly Giacomodonato  1:55  

Joining us here today are Soren Bondrup-Nielsen — he is the president of the Blomidon Naturalist Society and author and a retired professor of biology — as well as Riley Scanlan, who’s the program coordinator for the Blomidon Naturalist Society, and an active participant in other conservation efforts in Nova Scotia. 

 

Soren Bondrup-Nielsen  2:16  

I might just add that we are sitting here on the unceded territory of the Mi’kmaq to add to what Anna was talking about. So it yes, so it’s the traditional and unceded territory of the Mi’kmaq.

 

Holly Giacomodonato  2:30  

Would you like to talk about some of your experiences within the conservation space, and maybe some of what you’ve learned so far?

 

Riley Scanlan  2:40  

Well, I guess, feeling kind of new to this space, because there’s so much work that’s been on the go for so long. And really, I feel like I’m in a learning phase, I’m learning about the work of so many people. I think there’s a lot of really interesting and incredible work going on, but that it’s kind of discouraging, just thinking about all this recent news in Nova Scotia, around the Biodiversity Act, which was a really big potential step forward, I think, for conservation in Nova Scotia. So I think I’ve been learning a lot about ways to organize and get people interested and learning and teaching others, while recognizing that we need to do so in a sustained way, personally, and as people organize and work together, in that we have to stay determined and committed.

 

Anna Huschka  3:39  

And sorry, just before we go to Soren, Riley, do you maybe want to go into a bit more detail about what the Biodiversity Act was just for our listeners who maybe aren’t from Atlantic Canada or Nova Scotia who might not necessarily have heard about it? 

 

Riley Scanlan  3:50  

Yes, thank you. So that was a bill set forward by the Department of Lands and Forestry, essentially creating — I don’t know how to explain it — creating a framework to conserve biodiversity in Nova Scotia specifically. And so it created certain measures that if say, a certain species at risk or rare ecosystem was identified in an area that then it had to be protected in some way, or some development couldn’t continue because of that. So it was kind of like a protective framework for biodiversity. And in certain stages throughout the process of that bill going forward, it was redacted, I guess, or edited and certain key components that would have given it strength to protect biodiversity were taken out. Yeah. As I understand it, it’s a pretty complicated topic.

 

Anna Huschka  4:46  

Awesome. Thank you. Soren, if you want to maybe just talk more about your experience with conservation work as well. We’d love to hear about it.

 

Soren Bondrup-Nielsen  4:53  

Well, my experience goes back a long, long way. And I’ve always been concerned about conservation, and biodiversity. And when I started at Acadia in 1989, in the biology department, and for 27 years I taught conservation biology. Yeah, every single year I taught it. And I think that the struggle with conservation is not trying to get the concepts across, it is more trying to figure out how to counter our economic model that is so based on extracting resources, from the ground, from the land, from the sea, you know, everywhere. And we always assume that that activity supersedes any other activity because it relates to our, you know, GDP our economic status in a sense, and this is why the biodiversity bill was watered down, because it was big industry that came in and said, wait a minute, this is going to impact jobs, it’s going to impact our ability to make money, so therefore, you can’t do that. And the government folded to that, so that in the end, the bill only applies to crown land. And this is always the case. So I think when it comes to conservation, it’s a matter of picking the way to really get the information across. And invariably, it’s not saying that species are important, and our livelihood depends on biodiversity, it’s a matter of, we need to change our mindset to accept that our economic system has to be within the ecological system. Right now, the way we do it is our ecological system are seen within our economic system. And therefore the economic system always wins out. And making that transition is not going to be easy, because invariably, when corporations begin to talk about, oh, it’s going to be jobs, then the general public often just falls and agrees. So when it comes to all these issues, climate change, that they all link together, and they all come down to our economic system, so from my perspective, it’s a matter of understanding that is our economic system from a perspective that needs to change. We can’t just say we’ve got to protect species, everybody would agree with that. However, when the economic system supersedes that, then we’re not going to get very far.

 

Anna Huschka  7:58  

Yeah, absolutely. So now that we’ve kind of established like, where you’re coming from with this, do you guys remember what was the first thing that sparked your passion and your interest in conservation and biodiversity?

 

Soren Bondrup-Nielsen  8:10  

This is a really interesting question, because Riley and I are working on a book about the Acadian forest and the first chapter in that book talks about how we became interested in forest biodiversity conservation, etc. And I think, for both Riley and I, it started out the same way. It started out as little kids, you know, I grew up right next to a forest. And I spent all my time that my parents would allow out in the woods, you know, playing, having fun, not necessarily knowing what that species of trees were or the birds that I saw that the interest came much, much later. But it was just, you know, being immersed in nature, that sparked this lifelong interest in nature. And then, you know, I didn’t become a birdwatcher until my late teens. I didn’t know plants until my late teens or early 20s. So it was really just, I’ll say it this way, having fun out in nature and enjoying being in nature that sparked it, and then later came that passion for educating other people about nature.

 

Riley Scanlan  9:37  

So similar to Soren, I really first became interested in nature as a kid, which some people find surprising because I grew up in the middle of Toronto, but I was very fortunate to have gone to summer camp during the summer, which was always kind of the highlight of the year, where it was just a space to essentially play outside. And I was so lucky to have had that. But I might add that I think, and as I went on to study the environment, it grew into sort of a more formalized interest in that I was understanding how it worked and what species names were and that sort of thing. But even now that I’m in Halifax, I don’t necessarily have a large forest that I can just walk to, to go spend time outside. But I’ve been learning about a lot of different ways to kind of connect with nature. And so now it’s even just starting to hear all of the different birds coming back and the little critters in the grass. So it’s really evolved over time, but originated from a place of just play and joy outside. 

 

Anna Huschka  10:48  

Yeah, that’s amazing.

 

Holly Giacomodonato  10:50  

When we do our research, we often like to give people action items. And another researcher, Isaac and I wrote an article for Green Teacher about like, how you can communicate about climate change without causing like too much ego anxiety and ego grief and things like that. And one of our action items is just like go out in nature, any connection you can make even just talking about a bird you saw today, which to some people might seem so almost like intangible or such a drop in the bucket. But it does really feel like it is an important baseline, because you have to be connected to nature to want to fight for it. Do you feel that way?

 

Riley Scanlan  11:40  

Yeah, and I think specifically birds is a kind of interesting topic, because there’s so many people who are really devoted to birds and really interested in birds. And I never understood that. And I still really don’t know much about birds. But it is something that they’re everywhere anyone can hear for, I’m not great at seeing them or looking for them. I don’t have binoculars or anything, but even just starting to listen to them more, brings me into such a different space. And that can be said of any aspect of like learning about trees or insects. But then, that, kind of what you were alluding to, feeling that I get or space that I feel like I’m in is such a great place to then think about possible solutions or actions otherwise it becomes overwhelming.

 

Anna Huschka  12:28  

Yeah, definitely. And I think a lot of our followers and a lot of our listeners will be able to relate to that whole sense of like play as a kid where — Riley, I can relate because I’m from Newmarket, which is just about 45 minutes from Toronto. And so it’s like any chance to kind of get to see like, nature was always super exciting, because you don’t get as much of it when you’re in the middle of the suburbs, like most of what I saw growing up was just birds in the backyard. So I think we can all kind of relate to that stemming love for nature coming from just playing. And speaking of action items, that was actually a great segue there for us, Riley, thank you. From both of you, what do you think are some of the most important actions that young people can take in terms of acting towards conservation?

 

Riley Scanlan  13:14  

This is something Soren and I have talked about a lot, which is kind of the purpose of this project we’re working on for the King forest region is how do we kind of mobilize people and get people to care about this and want to do something? And I think, Well, yeah, I think it really comes down to this idea of feeling connected to nature. Because of course, if you don’t really care for it, then I’d be hard pressed to believe someone is going to take the actions necessary to protect nature. So if you don’t care, probably not, a lot is going to get done. But also, a connection to nature is, I think, what sustains people’s actions. So to prevent burnout or feeling disconnected from the issue, people need to remain in touch with that reason why they first became interested in it, which I think for a lot of people comes from play and interest and wonder. So I would just say that the first step should really be going outside, getting to know a tree in your backyard or the park in your area, what, whatever you have access to. Because from that comes the ability and the inspiration to contact your MLA or write letters, whatever it is that you feel is important to do.

 

Soren Bondrup-Nielsen  14:36  

I have lived in cities where there was always much later in my life. And I’ve always, I’ve often thought that if you live within the big city, in concrete all around, it’s probably not that easy to develop that connection with nature. However, nature is always all around you. So even in, you know, in downtown Toronto, there are trees and parks and, you know, insects walking on the sidewalk. So it’s a matter of developing curiosity to investigate nature around you, no matter what it is. So, but I do think it is a little bit more difficult if you never get out into outside of a city. I do think like Riley said, she went to, like summer camps and went canoeing, etc. And like, if that could be made available to more kids, I think that would be wonderful. I know that in Toronto right now, there’s the Rouge Valley National Park, like it’s been made into a national park in the last five years, 10 years, I’m not sure. And I think that’s an amazing move on Parks Canada’s initiative, because like, traditionally, we think of national parks as being, you know, pristine wilderness areas. But I think having the Rouge Valley National Park is phenomenal. But there’s a possibility for kids in the city to go and be surrounded by trees, nature itself. And I think that most, most people, if they, if once they get out in nature, it’s all inspiring, because of everything that surrounds you. And it’s a matter of just being open to all the things that you can see and observe, and begin to ask questions you know about it. Unfortunately, so often, nature is being portrayed as being dangerous or not pleasant, because, you know, they’re mosquitoes that bite you and bees sting you and etc, etc. which is unfortunate, because that gives you an aversion to nature. So, being told about all the fascinating lifestyles that various organisms have, would be so important, but ultimately, one does have to get out into nature.

 

Anna Huschka  17:25  

Yeah, absolutely. And I really liked your point about, like, the danger of nature that sometimes gets communicated a lot. Like, I know, growing up, it’s like, we used to have like the service that would come to our mall during, like March Break, where it’s like, they’d bring a bunch of different animals, and it was called Zoo To You. And so it’s like, I know that I had friends whose parents would be like, No, you can’t hold the snake or like, Don’t go near the tarantula dangerous, and like, I’d walk up with my mom and they plop, like a giant, like, Python into my arms. And my mom would be there like snapping pictures. So I think a lot of it comes from circumstance as well. And I think you’re absolutely correct. In kind of overcoming these fears, and understanding that, like nature is such a vast, beautiful thing. And we need to experience that.

 

Holly Giacomodonato  18:10  

Yeah, I also think it gets into kind of the issue of inaccessibility in various nature, because we know like within an urban environment, that green spaces are not evenly distributed along class and race lines. So that might be hard for someone who’s a child or anyone like living in a space that’s devoid of green space, whether it’s getting enough nature with all the health benefits that that brings. But there definitely are organizations out there, including Street To Trail, which increases accessibility to nature for marginalized adults in Toronto, through day hikes, and multi day camping excursions outside the city; Indigenous Women Outdoors, which helps Indigenous women to come together, feel safe on the land and become leaders in the outdoor industry; and Flock Together, a bird watching collective for people of color.

 

Anna Huschka  19:05  

And so from both of your own personal experiences now, like what advice do you have for youth who are interested in conservation.

 

Riley Scanlan  19:12  

I think it’s a bit easier for youth to kind of come into the conservation space and understand that like, if this whole ecosystem dies, then we are going to be impacted. So I think getting behind that idea for some generations can be tricky or realizing that you have a part to play in that, so what you do will have consequences. I think youth had to have a better idea of how that works and their own role in that. So I think it’s really important to get involved in a way that is sustainable for yourself, because it can become super overwhelming when you start to realize everything that’s going on in conservation. There’s a lot of really great stories, but there’s also a lot of sad stories. So I think getting involved with groups that you agree with and that are doing great work. And there’s so much going on, I think it’s really easy to miss it. But once you start hearing about all these different organizations, it’s incredible all that’s going on. So I guess for you, it would be to get involved in something that you agree with and can do so in a way that you’re still going to enjoy and have fun with.

 

Soren Bondrup-Nielsen  20:26  

I think it’s so important to maintain an optimistic perspective, and not get worn down by all the sad things that one hears. And unfortunately, we tend to hear mostly about sad things. But disturbing, sad things, make news, happy things often don’t make the news. And I think it’s important to get out and like be in nature and to see that there’s still lots of it around, and it’s not doom and gloom. I think it’s important for youth to really embrace the concept of this, that everything is interconnected, because that is something that the older generation, I think, has a hard time understanding that things are interconnected, because our worldview has kept telling us that nature is made up of parts, and those parts are independent of each other. And they may interplay, may work together, but they are ultimately independent parts. And there are no independent parts in nature. It’s all, they’re all connected. So to really understand and embrace that concept, I think is critical.

 

Holly Giacomodonato  21:51  

I am fortunate enough to live on the traditional unceded territory of the Mi’kmaw peoples under the Peace and Friendship Treaty. After a conversation, I went out into a nearby piece of Acadian forest and tried to capture some of the sounds. I’m near wetlands, about half a kilometer away from the road, and there’s actually an osprey nest nearby. I hope this brought you a little more connection to the outside world.

 

Anna Huschka  22:27  

Soren, as a retired professor, and Riley now as a past student, was there ever an aspect of intersectionality in your work and within your education that was kind of brought in while you were still within academia? Because I know personally, I just finished taking conservation biology last semester, and we had like 12 weeks of lectures, and we had one, like hour long lecture time devoted to Indigenous systems of knowledge and systems of thinking. And like that was kind of the first time that was brought up within my entire education like within academia and within the schooling system. And so I was just wondering if Soren you ever managed to bring that in the classroom, or if it was more something that came after you retired, and Riley that was ever something you kind of saw within your education or again, if it’s something that kind of came after.

 

Soren Bondrup-Nielsen  23:14  

When I taught conservation biology, I always tried to get other people to come in and give guest lectures. And I, at Acadia, I had a Mi’kmaw student, I’ve had two Mi’kmaw students during my time, and I had them come and talk about their perspectives on nature. So whenever I had the chance, I would try to bring in different perspectives. There was a prof at Acadia, who taught comparative religion. And like he would come in and talk about the religions of the world and their perception of nature, which was always really fascinating. So as much as possible, I always try to get in different perspectives. Yeah.

 

Anna Huschka  24:07  

That’s brilliant. I think it’s super important now. And especially I think we’re starting to learn, and a lot of academic systems as well, that it’s like we have to move sometimes outside of those like primary resources and like peer edited journal articles and looked at lived experiences. 

 

Soren Bondrup-Nielsen  24:23  

Yes. But I think it is so important to bring in people who have lived the experience to talk about you know, whatever it is.

 

Riley Scanlan  24:34  

So I studied environmental science as my program. In hindsight such a, I think, land based study you would think would incorporate Indigenous knowledge but I can’t really remember any lectures, definitely no courses, dedicated to that or even to two-eyed seeing. That was a term I hadn’t come across until after I graduated. Yeah, I think really the only time where we talked about Indigenous experience was in, I took a course on environmental impact assessment. But that was kind of… it was really important, and it’s something to do, but it felt, upon reflection, kind of othering in that it was more, how are we impacting this local community? And, I think, genuinely wanted to help, but it was still this idea of We are here to do science and not a collaborative, not a genuinely collaborative approach, which I guess I haven’t really thought about. And this is an interesting question, but it’s too bad that it wasn’t incorporated, and I hope it is at this point.

 

Anna Huschka  25:32  

Thank you for your answers. Yeah, I think it’s really an important conversation to have, especially with two people who came from the academic stream.

 

Holly Giacomodonato  25:39  

I did my thesis on something very abstract in a sense and a little philosophical, which was the nature culture dichotomy that we have probably more in western Eurocentric societies where we think we’re separate from nature. And how that’s worked in a lot of ways is that we think we can control it. But also, to me, that’s a total false dichotomy. Like we are nature, some people argue that we are nature or that everything is culture. But I really just like take those lines away. And I think that if you take those lines away, it also has an interesting impact on like, what is this idea of pristine nature, it doesn’t really exist, right? Because it kind of erases like Indigenous communities that were here, pre-Columbus, and like, takes them off in a lot of cases for national parks, like, actually removes them from that land, and then says, this is just nature, right? When in fact, it was shaped by culture, just not European culture. That maybe ties in to what we were just talking about.

 

Soren Bondrup-Nielsen  26:51  

Yeah, no, I think that’s Holly, that’s really important. Because when we think of making protected areas, parks, whatever, it’s always, like, there are no people in them. Or if people are there, they’re removed. This is so unfortunate, because that emphasizes the fact that we humans are separate from nature, which we’re not. And I don’t know if you’ve heard about the concept about conservation refugees. But in many places, when parks are created, whoever lives there or lived there are removed and made to live elsewhere, which is where the refugee concept comes up. And I think it’s so ironic here, these people have lived sustainably on that land for 1000s and 1000s of years. And then we decided to put a park in place and ship them out. So Holly, you’re absolutely right, that North American perception of conservation is to remove all signs of people from the area. If you go to Europe, many national parks in Europe, they celebrate the human artifacts and the fact that people live there, which is so different from here. And I’m afraid that this North American concept of wilderness that is pristine, and does not have people in it is spreading around the world, which I think is very sad, because we’re never going to protect nature by removing people from nature.

 

Anna Huschka  28:22  

Yeah, absolutely and Soren, thank you for touching on kind of that history with national parks. And I think it’s also such a shame that it’s like we’re removing these voices from these protected areas as well, because I know we have a resource on our website at [ShakeUpTheEstab.org]. And I think it was Aidan, one of our other scientific content producers, made this amazing resource on Indigenous impacts on conservation in which Indigenous run spaces had such a higher level of biodiversity compared to those run by like, Eurocentric and Western perspectives. So I think it’s such a shame that it’s like, we’re still, we’re still seeing these voices blocked from these spaces.

 

Holly Giacomodonato  29:01  

So at SUTE, we focus our research on climate justice and aim to center the human impact of climate change, which is not evenly distributed, but it’s largely felt by underserved communities and amplified by intersecting lines of oppression. So I was just wondering, within the biodiversity and conservation spaces, what do you think are important impacts on people and communities to consider? And also, how do you visualize a just future moving forward?

 

Soren Bondrup-Nielsen  29:36  

We have to, like there’s so many marginalized groups of people, and they all have to be, they all have to be contacted and brought along and become part of the movement of conservation. And like I think it was mentioned earlier that marginalized peoples are often the ones who are impacted the most by either climate change or where garbage dumps are placed or where, you know, minerals are extracted, you name it, it goes on and on and on. And as long as we don’t have an equitable society, it doesn’t matter what we do, I don’t think. We have to understand the importance of inclusion, diversity, and what’s the other term equity? Because if you don’t bring everybody along, then it’s not going to work.

 

Riley Scanlan  30:25  

I think this is what your question is kind of touching on is that we can’t truly have environmental protection or justice without addressing all of the other issues in our economy and in our society. 

 

Soren Bondrup-Nielsen  30:38  

Yeah, I think so.

 

Anna Huschka  30:40  

Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree with everything you both just said. I think it’s so important in such a necessity, because I feel like sometimes, and I know I personally used to do this before I got into more of my volunteering work is we sometimes really tend to like compartmentalize different issues that we go like, okay, so I’m going to deal with like climate change, right now because like, this thing is really on the rise. I’m going to talk about social justice, like because we’ve got this issue on the rise. And I think a lot of people sometimes miss out on the fact that all these issues are interconnected. Like we can’t have climate justice, without racial justice, without gender justice without social justice. And it really does all just need to come together in all of our work, and we need to have intersectional spaces in order to get all this work done. 

 

Soren Bondrup-Nielsen  31:24  

Yeah. Yes.

 

Riley Scanlan  31:25  

And I think that’s what’s so great about Shake Up the Establishment, because you guys are addressing all of these issues, from the perspective that you can’t solve one without also solving the others.

 

Holly Giacomodonato  31:38  

One of my other profs at Acadia, Alice Cohen would always say like, in ecology, what she tries to get people to learn is, one thing never just does one thing. And for example, like, if you take a tree, it’s not just creating oxygen, it’s also stabilizing the landscape, it’s absorbing, like it’s holding water in the land, like it’s, it’s creating a habitat, it’s doing all these multiple things, and I think that that’s maybe, what we’re realizing, and in terms of like, the social issues as well, it’s all overlapping. 

 

Riley Scanlan  32:15  

Yeah. 

 

Soren Bondrup-Nielsen  32:16  

And the trees are communicating with each other through mycorrhizal networks.

 

Riley Scanlan  32:19  

Yeah, so cool. And then viewing nature as a, as a source of knowledge itself. Like, there’s so much in terms of how a tree works, there’s so much to learn. But also, I think, as humans and as society, so much of us is reflected in what we are in nature. So of course, we’re gonna work similarly. And I think as much as we can learn about nature will in turn learn more about ourselves as a whole society and as people. Can I add one thing, this something that I’ve been thinking about a lot because of this new book that just came out, Searching for the Mother Tree, or the Mother Tree Project with Dr. Suzanne Simard. She really pioneered this research around the connection between trees through fungal networks, it’s a great story, because it’s just this woman scientist who, against all odds was right all along and could prove that with all of her science, but then also just this idea that it totally changed how people view forests in that they’re not just competing individuals, but that they’re actually selflessly working together. And I just think that’s kind of a really beautiful picture and maybe an analogy for what needs to happen. 

 

Anna Huschka  33:31  

Absolutely. 

 

Holly Giacomodonato  33:34  

Yeah. So, what is something you’re working to establish? And by that, I mean, what’s something that you’re trying to create for the future or just working within conservation?

 

Soren Bondrup-Nielsen  33:47  

The first book that we’re working on together is something like that. You want to talk about it, Riley?

 

Riley Scanlan  33:53  

Sure. You can probably add to it, that comes out of this idea of what can we do with this science background of understanding how this really interesting ecosystem is the Acadian forest region. So we understand how it works, but how do we get other people to care about it, to want to spend time in it, but also maybe to want to try and protect it, because it’s at risk. And so we went back to that idea of trying to inspire people to just spend time in a forest in the Acadian forest region. So the purpose of the book is to talk a bit about how we first came to nature conservation, a bit about how that forest works, because I think an understanding of an ecosystem can help you to connect with it in a way, but then also giving ideas and prompts on ways to be in a forest to walk through it or to play in it, because hopefully, I think that has a bigger impact than a field guide that talks about all the different individual plants and lichens that you might find. And while those are all really interesting, something along those lines of just how to be in a forest doesn’t really exist that we know of here. So the goal is to is that first step of getting people outside and then hopefully they’ll want to do something about it. 

 

Holly Giacomodonato  35:06  

Awesome. And then my next question is, what is something you’re working to shake up. And by that I would mean, just any issues, systems, worldviews, anything that is kind of entrenched that you would like to shake up in the process of your work.

 

Soren Bondrup-Nielsen  35:25  

I want to shake up this notion that we will be successful from a conservation perspective, if we protect a certain proportion of the land base, because that’s never going to protect nature, biodiversity, etc. We have to treat every single piece of land in a sustainable fashion. You know, I think parks are important, but parks are not going to be what’s going to protect biodiversity. And unfortunately, an experience in Nova Scotia was that when Nova Scotia and Canada adopted that, protecting 12% of the land base, the response from industry was that, okay, but then we’re going to be more intense on the rest of the landscape. And that attitude isn’t ever going to work. We cannot treat nature as a stamp collection, where we’ve, you know, set aside a few areas and then pat ourselves on the back and say we have succeeded, because then we will have failed, if that’s all we managed to do. So I want to shake up this notion that all we need are, you know, some protected spaces, where ideally we keep people out of and then biodiversity is going to be just fine.

 

Riley Scanlan  36:46  

I think if I could shake up one thing, this mindset that we know everything. I think from a science perspective, you can see how, of course we don’t know everything. That knowledge is constantly growing. And we’re constantly proven wrong in conservation and biodiversity, but also just in society, we’re wrong about ways of knowing or doing science, we’re wrong about how our systems work. And so getting away from this idea that what we’re doing right now is right, and we know that is a sad thing, something that needs to be shaken up. 

 

Soren Bondrup-Nielsen  37:20  

Yeah, good point Riley. 

 

Anna Huschka  37:22  

Just to kind of wrap us up a little bit. Feel free to promote yourselves, like how can youth get involved with your work? Where can youth find you? If it’s social media, by email, we obviously have your book that you’ve discussed coming soon? How can youth get involved with the work that you are both doing?

 

Riley Scanlan  37:37  

Yeah, Blomidon Naturalist society, it’s very place based. And I think at some point, we’ll probably get back to doing mostly in person. So anyone in that area can obviously get involved with our events. But otherwise, I mean, I think there’s nature groups really everywhere across our country, and we’re pretty lucky for that. I think it’s hard for certain, there’s still quite a divide in kind of these naturalist groups or nature, outdoors groups, and that they’re not necessarily open or welcoming to everyone, not the individuals themselves but how they’re structured really. So if a group in your area isn’t for you, I guess it’s hopefully creating your own or just finding the people in your area that you feel safe with being outdoors and if not, then it may be going out on your own that can be powerful too. And just spending, being outside if you can.

 

Soren Bondrup-Nielsen  38:33  

The Blomidon Naturalist society, we started a program and we were approached by Judy Lipp who wanted to start a nature program for kids. And she calls it Flying Squirrel Adventures and they are part of the Blomidon Society now. And that is certainly a way for local kids to get involved in nature, exploration, etc. I think like Riley said, become aware of what’s taking place in your area. The Blomidon Naturalist Society, this year, we joined something called the Butterfly Way, which is a David Suzuki program. And it is to grow native plants that are going to attract pollinators. And there are lots of those in Toronto, for example. So it’s finding organizations, groups, individuals who are doing any kind of conservation initiative and volunteering, taking part in it, showing that you’re interested. And there are lots of things that are going on. It’s a matter of, you know, discovering them. And I think like for children, elsewhere for kids, young adults. I used to love reading about books about nature when I was a kid. I devoured them. Reading would be one way to, like if you can’t get out in nature, you can read about it and get a high from reading about others’ adventures in the wilderness and in the wild. But I want to, there is one aspect, unfortunately, I think, for a lot of people getting out in nature is kind of its fighting nature. It’s winning. It’s overcoming hardship, etc. And I think that’s the wrong attitude to have, when you go into nature. Just get in and just live, just be part of nature, don’t get out in nature and try to fight it, or try to overpower it or try to, you know, be better than somebody else in terms of riding your bike or running or climb prix or whatever. You know, it’s not a competition, it shouldn’t be a competition.

 

Holly Giacomodonato 40:52

Thank you both so much for being here and I really appreciate all of your thoughts and perspectives.

 

Anna Huschka 40:57

Thank you both so much, it was super insightful to get to hear about your experiences and your thoughts and advice. It was super powerful and super helpful so thank you so much for joining us today

 

Soren Bondrup-Nielsen 41:08

You’re very welcome this was fun

 

Riley Scanlan 41:10

Yeah, thank you

 

Holly Giacomodonato 41:12

Thank you for listening to Establish the podcast. Thank you to Greg Markov for donating his time and music. All of the music you hear in this episode are Greg’s original compositions. Please show him some love @GregMarkov on Instagram. This episode is hosted by myself and Anna at Shake Up the Establishment. It was edited by me, Holly Giacomodonato and transcribed by Hayley. To show our appreciation to you, the listener, you can use the discount code, all capitals, ESTABLISH2, no spaces at shakeuptheestab.org to get 15% off our entire webstore. If you have any notes on this episode, have a topic you want us to cover, or even think you could be a good guest, contact us at [email protected]. We hope to see you back soon.